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(Contains: nudity and ideologically sensitive material)
Alternative title for this "Does my ass look fatwa in this burqa"??

I shot this a couple years ago, after talking to a friend who'd been in the United Arab Emirates for a year on a consulting project. He told me about parties where the women would show up in their burqa with $10,000 French designer dresses underneath and as soon as people walked in the door the wine started flowing and the modesty costumes went into the closet. So it made me wonder - how can anyone tell if you're wearing anything at all under your "modesty costume"?

I've written elsewhere about the total ridiculousness of religion-based social strictures against nudity. Often I get comments suggesting that I owe other people's beliefs more respect than I show. What's really going on is that there's a social taboo against making fun of religion because history shows that when you poke people's faith they often become dangerously violent. What's to respect about that? If I went around telling people I believed the universe had been created by spider-man and that everyone should wear their underpants on their head (skid marks forward!) they wouldn't "respect my beliefs" they'd put me in a hospital and give me antipsychotic drugs. When you consider the ridiculousness of the theory of a divine being that would create a body as gorgeous as this model's - and want it hidden from view - well, that's crazy. Forcing your women to wear something like a burqa is dumber than wearing your underpants on your head, especially if you live someplace hot. Now, let me state for the record that I am an "equal opportunity disrespecter" - I'm not anti-muslim, in particular. I think that most of the ways religion manifests itself are bordering on insanity, or inanity. Dear reader, if I have offended you, I'm sorry for your feelings but I'm only serving as the bearer of bad news. Don't shoot the messenger. Take your underpants off your head and get with the 21st century.

mjr.

PS to all fanatics who might be inclined to threaten to kill me for this photo - what are you doing looking in a "nude" art gallery?
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:iconneo128:
Neo128 Featured By Owner Jan 7, 2014
Ha ha... The kind of thing I would have though of... If I had a sense of humor. :D
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:iconderfel01:
derfel01 Featured By Owner Jun 22, 2012
That blurb - very well said!

Good pic too - I would hope point well made, but with many believers that's too much to hope for...
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:iconmjranum:
mjranum Featured By Owner Jul 8, 2012
You can explain things to believers until you're purple in the face; religious belief is self-reinforcing.
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:icongreylynx:
GreyLynx Featured By Owner Apr 22, 2011  Student Photographer
I love the PS there. XD
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:icondeadavalanche:
deadavalanche Featured By Owner Sep 22, 2010  Professional Traditional Artist
This is a good picture and I enjoyed reading your description. Living a life based on a silly iron-age superstition is absurd.
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:iconbloodsmoothy:
bloodsmoothy Featured By Owner Aug 31, 2010
Beautiful concept.
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:iconwindanetwork:
windanetwork Featured By Owner Jul 20, 2010
Love it!!!
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:iconwindanetwork:
windanetwork Featured By Owner Jul 20, 2010
Love it!!!
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:iconlady-woods:
Lady-woods Featured By Owner Jun 4, 2010  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
This is a beautiful photograph! I'm not against religion per say, but it is so true that I'm much more in favour of simple faith and spirituality than in the institution of said faith, full of does and don'ts and dogma... Faith in itself isn't bad (or good as such), it should just remain a personal matter, to be shared with others if they wish, and no more. It should certainly not interfere with the public sphere. But that's never been the forte of monotheistic faiths, now has it?
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:iconmjranum:
mjranum Featured By Owner Jun 16, 2010
Well, I specifically dislike the aspects of religion in which someone goes around telling other people they know what god wants (which, coincidentally, is often what they want...)..
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:iconscart:
scart Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2010
Agree with most of what you said & it is a KILLER PIC, good mix of the divine & the taboo.

cheers
SCART
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:iconmjranum:
mjranum Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2010
Thanks!
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:iconfunky-casanova:
Funky-Casanova Featured By Owner Jan 9, 2010
I am a Muslim lady, and I like to think of myself as moderately religious and I found your comment as offending as I find your work..
not at all..

I respect your opinion, as i respect your work.
I am, if anything, a big fan :)


PS: your initial title wouldn't have made much sense. A fatwā (Arabic: فتوى‎; plural fatāwā Arabic: فتاوى‎;), in the Islamic faith is a religious opinion concerning Islamic law issued by an Islamic scholar.
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:iconmjranum:
mjranum Featured By Owner Jan 10, 2010
You rule!
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:iconoro-elui:
oro-elui Featured By Owner Dec 18, 2009  Hobbyist General Artist
lovely lighting.
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:iconrox-n-bones:
rox-n-bones Featured By Owner Oct 30, 2009
I love your alternative title :D
very pretty pic, makes me want to know ladies in burqas :p
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:iconmjranum:
mjranum Featured By Owner Oct 30, 2009
In some parts of the world, this shot would get you put against a wall while people threw rocks at you...
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:iconcoastienik:
coastienik Featured By Owner Aug 12, 2009
Brilliant
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:iconshadezofgrey:
shadezofgrey Featured By Owner Apr 30, 2009
this is quite possibly the most beautiful body i have ever seen
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:iconmjranum:
mjranum Featured By Owner Apr 30, 2009
I'm glad you like. :) I find that it's all so subjective that I'm generally pretty much impressed by whoever I'm looking at, right now. :)
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:iconforget-your-religion:
I like the simultaneous, sacreligious-yet-just effect of this photo. Beautiful
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:iconmjranum:
mjranum Featured By Owner Apr 22, 2009
Thank you!
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:iconthisolddeviantart:
thisolddeviantart Featured By Owner Feb 25, 2009
You know, I feel like having a religious debate.

I wanna make a big statement that nobody can prove as true or false but I can't think of one...

okay, here's one.

Satan exists but God doesn't!

Sombody!

Please, help me understand!
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:iconmjranum:
mjranum Featured By Owner Feb 25, 2009
People who go around talking about "proof" don't understand logic. The question is not proof, but rather evidence. There is no evidence that either satan or god exists that is not contradicted by evidence of equal quality.
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:iconthisolddeviantart:
thisolddeviantart Featured By Owner Feb 26, 2009
exactly.

Plus, in the christian bible, satan was created by god himself, which makes it obvious that if he exists then god does also, IF we take the bible to be true.
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:iconmjranum:
mjranum Featured By Owner Feb 26, 2009
Which is interesting - because if god created satan, then god apparently was powerful enough to create another divine being more powerful than himself. If satan was less powerful, god would have been able to simply reconstitute him as good instead of doing all that silly stuff with getting his kid tortured to death by psychotic primates on some backward planet.

Religion is stupid.
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:iconthisolddeviantart:
thisolddeviantart Featured By Owner Feb 26, 2009
exactly!

if satan was truly both the spawn of all evil and less powerful than god, and if god is truly a merciful and loving god, then surely god would have simply winked him out of existence? or is there something I've missed here?

Maybe it's part of the all-loving god's plan, which also happens to involve malaria, genocide, tsunamis, rape, racism, homophobia, nazis, fascists, allowing bigoted politicians to ruin the everyman's life, homelessness, depression, famine, drought, swarms of locusts (which in my opinion really should be a good enough reason to move house but hey that's a different argument altogether), the corruption of pretty much everyone and global warming. Either God's very slow, very uncaring, very nonexistent or just plain evil.

maybe sinners deserve to be punished, but maybe the people who haven't sinned deserve not to be sinned against? let him without sin cast the first stone is basically tantamount to organising a sin-party where everyone can sin as much as possible but nobody can be blamed for "starting it". of course, just the word "sin" in itself assumes that people care about salvation. I don't believe I need to be saved regardless of whatever else I believe in. Saying I need to be helped when I'm just living my life is like telling me to be depressed, and that's something I just can't be fucked to bother with.

The second there is one argument that can't easily be used to also disprove god's existence as the only deity and a real thing, I'm converting. otherwise, I couldn't care less about hypocrites telling me how to live my life.
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:iconvampyredearest:
VampyreDearest Featured By Owner Mar 3, 2009  Hobbyist General Artist
There's one huge concept you're missing in the first part of that there argument. -points-
See, there's a happy medium between free will and predestination; we don't know where that falls, but the point is that God doesn't wanna control us, he created us and he really hoped we would work out, because according to the Bible we were made to praise him (among other things, but we're supposed to bring glory to him anyhow)... problem being, Adam and Eve sinned because of human nature and thus we no longer get to live in paradise and life sucks. That's where your corruption comes from, by the way--the original sin. It's a progressive thing.
It's really the humans who turn away from God, in my opinion, and the Bible supports that too. It's not God abandoning us, it's God leaving us to our own means and staying there to help us out every step of the way, but us not accepting that help or even looking for the slightest bit of guidance.
And by the way, we're supposed to learn from our troubles. They're there to help us grow. The Bible flat-out says that life will suck for Christians, and we all know it applies to others as well. It's not about being depressed. It's about admitting that we are human, we screw up, that no matter how hard we work at being perfect we just can't--but at the same time acknowledging that there is a God who is willing and able to save us from it. The troubles go into that; they're supposed to bring us closer to God and on a more secular level, shape us into what we will one day become. I know my influences have made me who I am, and I know that it's conquering the issues in my life that has made me as strong as I am, mentally anyway; physically I'm a wimp. :P

Anyway, sorry if this is too religious for you, but you sorta opened yourself up to it. xD
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:iconthisolddeviantart:
thisolddeviantart Featured By Owner Mar 4, 2009
Well where does hell come into that? Isn't it also in the bible that if you don't worship god you're going there?

I completely understand what you mean and why you say it, but the fact is that the bible says that not worshiping god is tantamount to blasphemy and a ticket to hell. that's what I have a problem with. if god really didn't care if we didn't worship him then why is that the truth?

The fact is, I don't believe in hell. hence why I have no problem taunting satan.

Telling me that I need to be saved from something I don't believe in doesn't make me want to do anything, let alone change my life for a religion.

I also completely believe that it's your hardships that make you who you are, but I also believe that we need to understand that the only people who get us active are ourselves. Honestly, I don't disbelieve in god. But I also don't think that I've ever been inspired by him in any way.

In the old testament god was a mass-murderer. he himself slaughtered cities because they were doing things he decided were wrong. I think that if I was going to believe in god I would believe in everything that was said about him in the bible, both old and new testaments, as truthfully any one part can be just as easily proved or disproved as any other part.

I'm not inspired by fear. maybe that's a bad thing, but it's true. And truthfully, I do fear the old testament god and i do think that if god existed (and if there was only one god) then he would be the same god as the one in the old testament. I'm not going to worship something out of fear.

I've been to churches, I've been to mosques and I've been to other places of worship. Almost every single one of them is a wonderful place for reflection, celebration and peace but I don't think that's as much to do with god or any other holy figure as it is to do with the people in the churches who go out of their way to make people happy and let them enjoy their lives.

one of the saddest things I think there is about the world is that so few people are willing to do that without what they believe to be a message from god or any other person. It's the people in the religion who make it what it is, not the deities. And frankly, the people in organised religion are almost exactly the same as people outside organised religion, be they atheist, simply not willing to tie themselves down or anything else.

I think I can be just as good and successful and kind and helpful without giving my praise to someone else (unless that person has actually helped me) as I can with giving all of the credit for my success to someone else, if not much more so.

Don't worry, I love a debate. ^^;
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:iconvampyredearest:
VampyreDearest Featured By Owner Apr 4, 2009  Hobbyist General Artist
I didn't mean for this to become a debate. It was meant to be more a sharing of ideas. :P
And now I don't have the time to respond fully, but I assure you, if I had the time to write a decent reply, I would... The problem is that I have many, many thoughts that arise in response to that post. I'll answer your questions and hit the main other thing I wanted to say.

1. It's about the relationship, not just worshiping. If you've accepted Christ, then you've got the relationship, and you'll WANT to worship God... that's the difference. But yeah, according to the Bible, if you don't take what God is so very willing to give you (a sacrifice that was made many years ago already, at that), then you're going to Hell. Hell is spiritual death--it's punishment for sin. And everyone sins.

2. Again, this is somewhat paradoxical (or it sounds that way, anyway), but God loves us enough that he WANTS us to go to Heaven to be with him. However, on that same ticket, he can't just let everyone in. They have to accept his grace; he can't do it for them, since he gave us free will and all. The alternative to Heaven is Hell. Therefore, if you aren't going to Heaven, you're going to Hell. Why, if he loves us so much, would he send us to Hell at all, though? I find it easiest to explain with an analogy: consider parenting. Parents punish their children for doing wrong out of LOVE; if they didn't, said children would turn out without discipline, without morals, and ultimately without the ability to function in society. And we all know it never works to threaten punishment but never actually give it; in such cases, the children learn to abuse your leniency. The idea is much the same with God and Heaven and Hell.

3. In all honesty, you're completely right about people being the same in and out of religion... often, anyway. The difference is, at least with many of the Christians I know, even before I knew them in the least, I could recognize that there was something different about them. And I guess it's just a difference of perspective, but I don't look at it as them feeling it's their DUTY to be good, welcoming, peaceful people. From personal experience, I feel I know this. Before I was even remotely considering Christianity or any other religion for that matter, I felt like I was a good person, and in all reality I was--I've volunteered for years assistant-coaching little kids in soccer, and I've always loved babysitting, doing chores for others, holding doors, all of the little things that mark people who just want to help people. But back then, I was devoutly agnostic. Now, I do even MORE of that, and it's of less selfish desires. I do it because I just FEEL like it's right, and it's what I'm comfortable doing, not because I want to please my God. If I didn't have a deity over my shoulder telling me what's right, I would still do it; the motives just wouldn't be as pure. I know, you probably still think that it's because God told us to do it, and that's why we do it... Yeah, that's a great incentive, but the goodness, for me and others I know, is just something that comes with accepting Christ. When you have, it's literally like floodgates open in your heart (blah, corny), and you just have the desire to serve people and do things you never wanted to do, and suddenly there's an appreciation for life and for everyone and everything in it that wasn't there before... It's a surreal feeling, and I'm not sure my words can do justice to it on such short notice...
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(1 Reply)
:iconmjranum:
mjranum Featured By Owner Feb 26, 2009
Well said!
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:iconthisolddeviantart:
thisolddeviantart Featured By Owner Mar 4, 2009
thank you :D

I thought it was rather well said myself. XD
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:iconvirgokitten:
virgokitten Featured By Owner Feb 15, 2009
featured (Hope that is okay, tell me if you want it removed)

fantastic photo
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:iconmjranum:
mjranum Featured By Owner Feb 16, 2009
I'm honored.
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:icongabzies:
Gabzies Featured By Owner Jul 1, 2008
This is really awesome! Personally, I believe you show more contempt for your body and the Creator (this comment is I guess aimed at religious folk) when you cover it up like it's something disgusting. Burqas piss me off, we should all just be nudists.
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:iconmjranum:
mjranum Featured By Owner Jul 2, 2008
It gets cold in some places. :) But, really, it's weird that we care so much about what covers our shells.
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:icongabzies:
Gabzies Featured By Owner Jul 2, 2008
EXACTLY!You can cover and be modest all you want, but you can still be wretched. Like, how everyone dogs on prostitutes, but it's okay for a girl to marry a man she doesn't know for his money....all that does is make you an exclusive whore. I know you aren't religious, but I do believe in a Higher Power, but I hope I'm still sane. I love God; I hate God's fan clubs.
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:iconmjranum:
mjranum Featured By Owner Jul 2, 2008
Y'know, you've got a good point about the marrying for money thing... I'd never thought of it that way. Of course, ultimately, we're all whores - because we trade our precious life-time for money or goods and services...

I hope you're still sane, too. :) Peace, and hugs.
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:icongabzies:
Gabzies Featured By Owner Jul 2, 2008
Yeah, I don't see what the difference is, prostitutes even have a sort of dowry! Ah, yes, I got into some tiffs in my high school Economics class because I'm a Socialist and I brought stuff like that up. About even if we are 'free', we are all still slaves and whores to money. But I suppose there is no way of getting around the fact that we need to feed and shelter ourselves, in whatever way we have to. Lol, let's say screw it, and go be monks.
<3
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:iconxandrei:
xandrei Featured By Owner May 16, 2008  Professional Digital Artist
Absolutely beautiful. I love the message this conveys, and I love your comment to go with it. Nudity should not be something have a heart attack over. The human body is beautiful, and it should be seen as art, rather than something to be covered up.
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:iconmjranum:
mjranum Featured By Owner May 16, 2008
Thank you!
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:icongoldenhair:
goldenhair Featured By Owner May 15, 2008  Professional Photographer
Hey, I'm a Christian and I'm studying The Photographic Nude at uni.... I absolutely believe God made the body beautiful and that nude photography is the appreciation of it! I think like anything else it has a time and place, (for appreciations sake!) but when truly understood, it is one of the most amazing art forms.

In terms of the religion thing.... You would probably say you have a general sense of respect for humanity, no? Not in terms of looking up to someone, but basic human respect. Well, for most true 'religious people' (I hate that term) their beliefs aren't separate to their person - it's one and the same thing, so by 'disrespecting' the beliefs you're in fact insulting the person. (bear with me) That's by no means condoning violence that may or may not follow when people lose all sense of reason, (and most religions, as far as I know, don't condone said violence in ANY way) that's a different matter and that happens in relation to all sorts of things, not just religion. I like to discuss my beliefs with people, I think it's interesting.

Just wanted to point out that there's a difference between understanding and critiquing/questioning a religious belief/person (what I believe the picture does) and openly insulting it/them (where I think your words are headed)...

It makes you look slightly ignorant of and to those around you, that's all
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:icondepresedescapist:
depresedescapist Featured By Owner May 17, 2008  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I think you ought to brush up on your communication skills before attempting to discuss your beliefs. In particular, read up on sentences, as that post was not entirely different from mind diarrhea.

Why does insulting a religious belief make one seem ignorant? I find that it is in fact the other way around. We know about the religion--its doctrines, requirements, beliefs, stories, etc. This is exactly why we are insulting it. Ignorant would be to blindly support or oppose a religion, unaware of its idiosyncrasies.

"You would probably say you have a general sense of respect for humanity, no?"

I'm sorry. You must be a nice person, but there are many of us who have no respect for humanity. Humans suck--we are essentially selfish, brutish bastards, liable to form a mob and believe in idiotic stories. I am friends with several religious people--while they are nice, and we have some things in common, yes, I do find that a portion of this person is either batshit insane or brainwashed to believe in stories (most of them are Christians) that a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you life forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

Why do you believe in God? How do you know God created the body? How do you know God's existence?

“A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.” –Friedrich Nietzsche
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:iconmjranum:
mjranum Featured By Owner May 15, 2008
You would probably say you have a general sense of respect for humanity, no?

Actually, I'm pretty much of a misanthrope. :)

so by 'disrespecting' the beliefs you're in fact insulting the person

Yeah - and that's not my problem. I understand what you're talking about, though - if I think something you believe is silly, then I've pretty much got to think you're at least a little bit silly. Considering some of the absolutely bollocks ridiculous stuff that the various religions claim - well - yes, of course I think people who swallow that nonsense whole are pretty ridiculous themselves.

Let's try it on for size, shall we?? You say you're a christian. So, by that I can probably infer that you'd think someone who dedicated his life to the worship of Zeus was a bit out of touch with reality in this day and age. And, you probably would think someone was a bit goofy if they went around praying to Coatl or some Mayan diety. If you're a christian, my guess is that you're an "atheist" about every religion except one - you probably think that all the other religions are wrong (and by extension that their followers are deluded, wrong, stupid, goofy, whatever) - I'm just an atheist about one more god than you are.

It makes you look slightly ignorant of and to those around you, that's all

No, I completely understand what I'm doing. It makes me look impatient, intolerant, and perhaps rude. So be it. I'd rather be a bit impatient than walk around talking like I was barking mad.
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:icongoldenhair:
goldenhair Featured By Owner May 16, 2008  Professional Photographer
Firstly, no offense intended. For arguments sake... and nothing to do with the image.

So basically, what you're saying is that you're an incredibly rude, intolerant individual... and essentially you're proud of it. So in fact you're worse off, unhappier, more likely to cause conflict and more importantly - hurt others, less satisfied and a far worse person than the majority of 'religious' people living out their daily lives joyfully, peacefully, not pushing their beliefs on anybody. (You'll deny this, and say that in fact you're fine, religious people you know aren't satisfied, and do terrible or inconsistent things in the name of religion, but the fact is that's the minority not the majority. It also shows that you don't understand the nature of their faith - it DOESN'T make one PERFECT or INHUMAN or BETTER THAN OTHERS - although some people might act like it - and thus have the ability to do everything right all the time - I can explain what happens if you are at all interested, but I doubt you will be.)

It appears that you are indeed ignorant, because you cannot see that you are the one with a problem, not the majority of these people.

In relation to your argument about my faith, I don't say I'm a Christian, I am one. If someone wants to believe in Zeus or a Mayan deity they can, that's their decision, not mine. I don't need to think they're goofy, it doesn't matter what I think of the belief, or of them in terms of the belief. Faith is personal decision, if it works for them, whatever. I only have a problem when they try to convert me to their belief by force. If you think you can be an athiest about every religion except one, you've missed the point of athiesm. (I know you'll say you haven't, it doesn't change the fact that you have.) Like I've said, it's a personal thing, so it doesn't MATTER whether I think it's wrong, I know it's wrong for me. That said, the nature of my belief is that once I make the decision to become a Christian, I cannot follow my selfish lifestyle anymore, so concern and love for others is of utmost importance. It's a way more effective witness (I believe) than screaming at people they'll go to hell.

Let's try this on for size, shall we??
Imagine for one moment, if your intolerant mind can, that Jesus was right, and everything I believe and know is true.... There's a big God up there who knows and is more than you and the combined knowledge this planet has ever and will ever have... And you're sitting here saying He doesn't exist, because you have your great human knowledge and stubborn human belief that you are always right, which automatically means that you are.

That makes you look like something of a moron.

No offense.
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:icondepresedescapist:
depresedescapist Featured By Owner May 17, 2008  Hobbyist Digital Artist
"So in fact you're worse off, unhappier, more likely to cause conflict and more importantly - hurt others, less satisfied and a far worse person than the majority of 'religious' people living out their daily lives joyfully, peacefully, not pushing their beliefs on anybody."

:rofl: On what grounds do you say so and so is worse, and so and so is better? Is happiness due to an imaginary friend better than being realistic? Do you know the statistics of crime rate for deist vs. atheist? More likely to cause conflict... WHA? Weren't the events of September 11th, 2001 based on religious beliefs? Isn't the whole Palestinian/Israeli issue over religion? The Pakistan vs. India conflict based on Islam vs. Hindu? The Crusades? Jewish persecution? The Inquisition?

Intolerant? I am tolerant of everything people do not choose--their appearance, race, gender, sexuality--but everything a person does choose, is up for grabs.

"not pushing their beliefs on anybody."

except their kid(s).

"It appears that you are indeed ignorant, because you cannot see that you are the one with a problem, not the majority of these people."

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Reread that sentence in the context of this argument.

So if I were to believe in the Mayan gods and begin sacrificing and chopping people's heads off for the sun god, or to believe that lighting is caused by the great almighty Zeus getting angry because his wife pranked him for cheating on her all the time with random mortals, you would (and think everyone else should) really be alright with it? Sweet deal.

"That said, the nature of my belief is that once I make the decision to become a Christian, I cannot follow my selfish lifestyle anymore, so concern and love for others is of utmost importance."

What the hell does God have to do with that decision? And if you really thought concern and love for others is of utmost importance, I think you should have sold the computer you are using and given away the money to help the homeless, or you should be in a random 3rd world country helping people.

"Let's try this on for size, shall we??
Imagine for one moment, if your intolerant mind can, that Jesus was right, and everything I believe and know is true.... There's a big God up there who knows and is more than you and the combined knowledge this planet has ever and will ever have... And you're sitting here saying He doesn't exist, because you have your great human knowledge and stubborn human belief that you are always right, which automatically means that you are.

That makes you look like something of a moron.

No offense."

:rofl: I love your (utter lack of) logic.

"Fallacy: Appeal to Consequences of a Belief

Includes: Wishful Thinking
Description of Appeal to Consequences of a Belief

The Appeal to the Consequences of a Belief is a fallacy that comes in the following patterns:

1. X is true because if people did not accept X as being true then there would be negative consequences.

2. X is false because if people did not accept X as being false, then there would be negative consequences.

3. X is true because accepting that X is true has positive consequences.

4. X is false because accepting that X is false has positive consequences.

5. I wish that X were true, therefore X is true. This is known as Wishful Thinking.

6. I wish that X were false, therefore X is false. This is known as Wishful Thinking.

This line of "reasoning" is fallacious because the consequences of a belief have no bearing on whether the belief is true or false. For example, if someone were to say "If sixteen-headed purple unicorns don't exist, then I would be miserable, so they must exist" it would be clear that this would not be a good line of reasoning. It is important to note that the consequences in question are the consequences that stem from the belief. It is important to distinguish between a rational reason to believe (RRB) (evidence) and a prudential reason to believe (PRB) (motivation). A RRB is evidence that objectively and logically supports the claim. A PRB is a reason to accept the belief because of some external factor (such as fear, a threat, or a benefit or harm that may stem from the belief) that is relevant to what a person values but is not relevant to the truth or falsity of the claim.

The nature of the fallacy is especially clear in the case of Wishful thinking. Obviously, merely wishing that something is true does not make it true. This fallacy differs from the Appeal to Belief fallacy in that the Appeal to Belief involves taking a claim that most people believe that X is true to be evidence for X being true.
Examples of Appeal to Consequences of a Belief

1. "God must exist! If God did not exist, then all basis for morality would be lost and the world would be a horrible place!"

2. "It can never happen to me. If I believed it could, I could never sleep soundly at night."

3. "I don't think that there will be a nuclear war. If I believed that, I wouldn't be able to get up in the morning. I mean, how depressing."

4. "I acknowledge that I have no argument for the existence of God. However, I have a great desire for God to exist and for there to be an afterlife. Therefore I accept that God exists.""

Let's consider the alternative. Jesus is incorrect, there is no magical deity in the sky, and after you die, you DIE, and maybe rot and decay and eventually crumble. But you're sitting there, saying that God does exist, because your all powerful faith says that you are right, which automatically means that you are.

That makes you look like something of a moron.

No offense. Ugh. You fucking pansy. "No offense" is as bullshit and cowardly as saying "you're a fat, hideous whore who smells like unwashed cooter and your beliefs are dumber than belief in the tooth fairy... jk."
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:iconmjranum:
mjranum Featured By Owner May 16, 2008
Firstly, no offense intended. For arguments sake... and nothing to do with the image.

Ok, and thanks for being civil.

So basically, what you're saying is that you're an incredibly rude, intolerant individual... and essentially you're proud of it.

I'm not sure if I'm proud of it, but it certainly doesn't bother me or ashame me. But I'm not sure I'll take the "hit" of being rude and intolerant. When someone around you is talking arrant nonsense, you can either sit there and think to yourself "what an idiot" or tell them that they're making a fool of themself. Obviously, that's going to happen with varying degrees of gentleness depending on how they react - but honestly, I think that it's much worse if you sit there thinking someone is a complete moron, and writing them off as a human being for being an idiot than to risk hurting their feelings a bit by giving them a clue. It's taken me a long time to come around to that position, but - well - there you have it. I used to sit there when friends of mine would blather on about accupuncture or their religion, or whatever, and I realized that I wasn't doing them any favors by sitting there with a false smile glued on my face while I nodded and thought, "you poor deluded sap."

"Intolerant" is a charge that's often levelled by the faithful at those of us who prefer to live in the real world. But that's really ridiculous - it's not "intolerance" to finally tell a kid that the tooth fairy is not real. It's just preparing someone to deal with a very "intolerant" real world that doesn't give a rat's ass about anyone's cherished illusions.

... a far worse person than the majority of 'religious' people living out their daily lives joyfully, peacefully, not pushing their beliefs on anybody ...

Well, first off, you assume I'm interested in keeping score about who's better or worse as a person. I don't.

And, you're right that the vast majority of the faithful (buddhist, hindo, islamic, christian) are fairly happy leading their delusional existences, and the fact that they have an imaginary friend largely doesn't have any effect on me at all. Other than to cause me to utterly lose respect for them as human beings because they're basing their lives on something completely nutty. Obviously, the fact that I think they're nutty has no effect on them whatsoever - which is fine - but it sure would be nice if they'd stop imposing their nuttiness on me. And they do. We've got imbeciles in public office who believe the earth is less than 6,000 years old - it's hard to make effective public policies about global warming when your idea of reality is that whacked. We've got the white house pushing $3 billion a year into religious institutions - institutions that do things like teach that the way to help alcoholics is to scare them or overawe them with a supreme being, and the way to fight AIDS is to teach abstinence to teen-agers. You see, the problem with the religious mindset is that it encourages people to make false and misleading (or outright INSANE) decisions about the real world and the here and now.

What you're basically trying to do is accuse me of being mean to people, just because they've got their harmless imaginary friend - but it's not a harmless imaginary playmate. It's an imaginary friend that deeply and profoundly affects political, military, and financial decisions around the world. And, yes - someone is always killing someone, somewhere, over religion. The consequences of religious foolishness are deeper than just cosmetic stuff and the lunatic fringe - when you look at someone like President Bush, who openly announces that he consults his imaginary friend on foreign policy decisions, how can any rational person not be terrified at the concentration of so much power into the hands of someone with such a weak grip on reality?

It also shows that you don't understand the nature of their faith - it DOESN'T make one PERFECT or INHUMAN or BETTER THAN OTHERS

Oh, I understand that just fine. And don't think I don't know a lot about faith - I've studied the "holy" books of most of the major religions of the world (including scientology) - mostly out of horrified fascination. I understand the nature of faith quite clearly: it is a knowing choice to accept a lie as reality. At the core of all the mysteries, that's what it's all about - because, after all, if there were proof from god/thetans/buddah/shiva/zeus/whatever then it wouldn't be faith - it would be fact. The core of all the faiths of the world is to cheerfully accept, as one of the most important parts of your world-view, something unproven and usually contradicted by observable reality. Only a fool can cherish or respect such nonsense.

It appears that you are indeed ignorant, because you cannot see that you are the one with a problem, not the majority of these people.

That's one of the oldest arguments that the faithful have been putting forward. "Because there are so many of us, we can't all be wrong!" Or (alternate form) "so many people believe in some kind of supreme being - doesn't that tell you something?" It tells me something, all right. It tells me people are ignorant about logic and history. It is perfectly possible for one person on earth to be right about something, when everyone else is completely, utterly wrong about it. The history of science - the study of the real world - is replete with examples where, for a brief time, there were only one or two people who understood a scientific truth that contradicted the beliefs of an entire planet.

If someone wants to believe in Zeus or a Mayan deity they can, that's their decision, not mine.

I see. But would you have a problem if The President believed we should start sacrificing someone each day, to make the sun come up according to Mayan traditions? Or would you have a problem if The President wanted to disband the navy so as not to piss off Poseidon? How about a less ridiculous example: Prince Charles of England believes genetically modified crops are bad and should not be allowed - would you like to see him explain to the 200 million people in India, Bangladesh, and Pakistan who would die is high yield rice and wheat were taken away?

Your argument that "whatever someone believes - is their business" falls apart pretty quickly when you admit that a person's beliefs (including faith) inform their day to day actions and those actions can not avoid affecting others. The only way religious delusions can not affect people's lives is if religion gets dialed back to the point where it's just some vaguely spiritual woo-woo that in no way, shape, or form dictates a person's actions in the here-and-now. That's basically atheism, for all intents and purpose: "I believe in a supreme being who wants nothing, cares about nothing, and doesn't make any rules." The deism of our founding fathers, in other words.

Let me try this another way: would you mind terribly if we required churches to pay taxes just like every other profitable business? That's $30billion in unclaimed taxes, sitting right there. Personally, I'd like to see the churches pay taxes - just like everyone else - so maybe I'd have a bit of that $30 billion not coming out of my paycheck. The point is that you're fooling yourself when you say "what someone else believes in is their business" because you know as well as I do that: I only have a problem when they try to convert me to their belief by force. You're only able to say that because you're part of the majority. The majority that put "in god we trust" on the dollar, and exempts the churches from taxes, and pushes christian notions of "sin" into laws in the form of laws against homosexuality or nudity, etc, etc. I think you're able to comfortably say what you said, only because you're part of the majority. You'd feel a whole lot different if the president was basing his foreign policy on "mayan values" or some other form of batshit foolishness than your particular brand of batshit foolishness.

If you think you can be an athiest about every religion except one, you've missed the point of athiesm. (I know you'll say you haven't, it doesn't change the fact that you have.)

That's a ridiculous assertion; can you defend it?

I'm guessing you're implying the "atheism is just another belief system" gambit. If atheism is just another belief system then not collecting stamps is a hobby.

once I make the decision to become a Christian, I cannot follow my selfish lifestyle anymore, so concern and love for others is of utmost importance. It's a way more effective witness (I believe) than screaming at people they'll go to hell.

That's certainly a wiser, kinder, gentler form of christianity. I absolutely agree. And it works much better than screaming at people that they'll go to hell, because my usual reaction to the latter is to offer to send them on ahead of me to check out the lay of the land.

Imagine for one moment, if your intolerant mind can, that Jesus was right, and everything I believe and know is true.... There's a big God up there who knows and is more than you and the combined knowledge this planet has ever and will ever have... And you're sitting here saying He doesn't exist, because you have your great human knowledge and stubborn human belief that you are always right, which automatically means that you are.

Imagine, for one moment, that I have a trillion, bazillion dollars and that I have a fist that can shoot lightning. OK. Good. We've both got good imaginations!! The difference is that I'm not basing my life on my imaginings (or the imaginings of a bunch of 3,000 year old semi-literate cave-dwellers) And here's the funny thing....
Based on absolutely no concrete, real-world evidence, every religion that has ever existed is equally likely to be right. (Of course, I think they're all wrong) But given the lack of evidence that there's any one god in particular, it's just as likely to be cthulhu as the christian god. When you're willing to accept your imaginings as reality we call that "schizophrenic" - you call it faith.

That makes you look like something of a moron.

No offense.


You're a coward. See, what you just did there was call me a "moron" and then try to make cute like it didn't matter. Unlike you, I'm willing to be outright contemptuous and not hide behind verbal games. If the fact that I write with words that drip contempt for the silliness of your religion bothers you, then hand it back, or tap out.

Clearly, it's hard for you to handle the fact that I think you're a delusional fool who's adopted a ridiculous set of beliefs and is trying to live his life by them. I'm sure it's a little discomforting to hear someone publicly and clearly pointing out your foolishness. And you call me "moron"? Is that the best you can do?

If you want to go another round, why don't you start off by devastating me with your cleverness by answering these simple questions:
1) Upon what evidence did you conclude that your particular religion is the "right" one, given that are or have been thousands of other religions you rejected? I.e.: did you study them all, or did you just somehow guess?
2) What evidence do you have that your religion is the "right" one that no other religion claims to also have? (ex: you've got a holy book? so do the hindus, buddhists, muslims, jews, and scientologists)
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:icongoldenhair:
goldenhair Featured By Owner May 19, 2008  Professional Photographer
I don't know if you can actually see, at all, that everything you're saying is just your opinion caused by the actual facts you're surrounded with. Fact: there are religious people. There is PROOF for this Opinion: They are ALL crazy. Since you can't prove nor disprove the existence of God, you can't PROOVE this.

Firstly, I'm not a coward, I didn't call you a moron, I said it makes you look something of a moron. You missed the point of what I was trying to say - probably on purpose. I was just stating the truth, that does make you look kind of silly, in that scenario. I didn't want to cause you offense, which is why I said no offense. I don't want to respond with contempt. I'm trying to respond with truth and love, because I don't believe contempt - outside of my belief, just for anyone in day to day life - achieves anything, it makes people bitter and cynical and people like that always end up alone. And that to me is really sad.

Secondly, you're not pointing out my foolishness, you're pointing out your opinion of me. You simply can't state that what I believe is {fact} foolishness, because as the comments say, one cannot prove God does or doesn't exist. SO you have faith in a lack of God just as I have faith in God. Athiesm is the belief that there is no God, it's not a lack of belief. And it doesn't offend me, I get it all the time.

In terms of other religions, I don't know what goes on in American politics, (I'm Australian, so a lot of what you're saying doesn't make much sense to me, because no offense to Americans but I don't really care much about what goes on in America, a lot of it seems a bit ridiculous) or where funding goes and such. If the President decided to start sacrificing people, I would absolutely have a problem. The president doesn't have the right to take other people's lives. (That falls under forcing religion on others.) Some would say that is what he does when he sends people to war, I didn't say I agreed with that, did I. The examples you're sharing are examples of what happens when religions turns destructive - i.e. man's opinions, not God's word. You're right that my actions are informed by my belief. My argument doesn't fall apart. I'm agreeing with you - my belief cannot be separated from who I am, it IS who I am, that's my identity. I believe this to be a good thing, because it means I act, to the best of my ability in Him, out of love. It means I care about other people, and when I said earlier you're worse off, I wasn't making it a competition, I wasn't trying to keep score... I was simply trying to point out that opinions like yours can be just as destructive as those with militant religious views that they act upon. It seems you really don't care about anyone but yourself, please correct me if I'm wrong.

In terms of churches, I don't know about unclaimed taxes, but the constant misunderstanding of 'church' is sort of annoying. Church is where two or three or more people may gather - not a building, or an organisation. The church is the people. The organisation is that - for organising. The building is to house the meeting. I know that's the way it's presented to the public, so it's not your fault for that, but strange you should say all this, I had this conversation with a friend a few hours ago. Basically he doesn't have a problem with the tithe being tax free, because that isn't seeking to profit, it's when a church (as an organisation) does something specifically to profit the church that he thinks it should be taxed. But the fact is ( I don't know about America) but here, a lot of that profit goes into changing people's lives for the better - and no I don't mean converting by force, I mean by helping those in need.

In terms of me saying you can't see you're the one with the problem, you misunderstood me - well I didn't make myself clear. I didn't mean the majority must be right. (Although about what you've said.... In saying that you're writing off a LOT of MAJOR thinkers in history who were religious - we wouldn't have had the major breakthroughs we had without them - just because they don't use your logic doesn't mean they didn't have any logic, and yes they stood against the belief systems of the time too. You're also writing off the many great religious people today and in recent history who are doing great things for this world. If one has a brilliant mind for science, and just happens to believe in God, what right do you have to say they can't be a scientist?) It is possible for only one person to be right about something and everyone else wrong. It's also entirely possible these millions of people are in on something and you're missing out. You can't PROVE it either way. It's a belief thing.

'Other than to cause me to utterly lose respect for them as human beings because they're basing their lives on something completely nutty.'
Well they probably think that you're nutty. Do you think they care whether you have respect for them or not? You're right, they don't..... They're happy!....Who's right? Because you can't prove it, you'll never know.

In terms of alcoholics, how would you help an alcoholic? I'm not saying that strategy is right, but do you have a good suggestion? At least (I don't really know what you're referring to) it seems they're trying to do Something... In relation to sex ed, I don't know if teaching abstinence and nothing else is the way to go.... I'd say, yes educate about sex, the nature of it, include the physical effects of it in terms of pregnancy and STDs, because that needs to be known, but don't offer the pill and condoms as failsafes, because they're not. Condoms don't protect against all forms of STDS, and the pill doesn't always work - and some people are allergic to it. I just want the EMOTIONAL effects of it to be recognised, adoption as an positive option instead of abortion and abstinence to be taught as a way to go, that one CAN just say NO! That saving the experience is a good thing, waiting for the right person and such. In my high school my sex ed class consisted of Making Genitals from Playdough, watching Austin Powers, and being shown videos on abortion that basically said get rid of it before it shows, and being told to go ahead and do it coz everyone else does. I'm not kidding. So I get really mad about that subject. I don't think that (from what I understand) the way sex ed is being run in America is a good idea, because it appears to not really be working. Is that right?

'"Intolerant" is a charge that's often levelled by the faithful at those of us who prefer to live in the real world. But that's really ridiculous - it's not "intolerance" to finally tell a kid that the tooth fairy is not real. It's just preparing someone to deal with a very "intolerant" real world that doesn't give a rat's ass about anyone's cherished illusions.'

By saying this you're inferring that you're right, I'm wrong, you are the one with Knowledge and your experiences are more valid than mine. You can't claim that, it's your opinion again. No proof.

I don't intend on devastating you with my cleverness, it's not about 'rounds'. I'm simply standing up for what I believe in. I wouldn't be genuinely being who I say I am if I didn't.
In response to your questions.
1. You can call me crazy, I don't mind. I came to the decision that I needed Jesus because I had the revelation that I was a sinner, and needed a saviour. No other religion had selflessness that rang true to me with the Son of God giving His life so that I might live. None of the other 'gods' cared that much. No other 'gods' embody love. I didn't guess. Once I met Jesus, I understood and there is no going back. I will pray that one day He will break through the walls you have set up, and you will see that He is so much more than anything this world can offer.
2. See above. The Bible is the living word of God, but to your eyes that doesn't matter, so in that context you're right other religions do have holy books. See above.
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:iconmjranum:
mjranum Featured By Owner May 19, 2008
Since you can't prove nor disprove the existence of God, you can't PROOVE this.

Have they stopped teaching basic logic in high-school level math?? It's been a while since I went through the educational system - maybe they expect kids these days to learn reason and logic from watching The Simpsons, or something. :( Because there's some basic logic 101 stuff you need to understand. First off: you can't prove a negative. It's logically impossible to prove that god does not exist. In all cases where someone makes a claim, the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. If you had any kind of evidence whatsoever, you could actually prove that god does exist. Of course, you can't. As you say later on:
I didn't guess. Once I met Jesus
If you met "Jesus" you ought to be able present some proof of that, too, huh?? Did you think to ask him any useful questions that could serve as evidence that he was god? Like, maybe, give you the powerball number for next week's lottery? Of course not. How inconvenient.

When someone is making claims that other people are expected to believe, their claims are meaningless unless they are theoretically falsifiable. Furthermore, their claims should be supported by some kind of evidence - because otherwise we're expected to treat all hypotheticals as potentially valid. That was actually the reason behind my challenge "what evidence makes you believe in one particular god, instead of all the others?" Presumably you don't believe in Moloch, Zeus, Ahura Mazda, Quetzalcoatl, and Cthulhu, right? If you don't you probably don't because there's no evidence that they exist. You're trying to have it both ways - you want to violate logic by demanding a logical contradiction (proof of a negative) but you're willing to dismiss for lack of evidence.

This stuff is not just "a matter of opinion" -- or, if it is, you're contradicting yourself again. Presumably, your belief in jesus is important to you. That makes it more than a "matter of opinion" - presumably you think you are correct that he exists. To accept something so important, your evidence must be really good, right? So let's hear it.

Remember, I am not asserting anything. I am not asserting "god does not exist" but rather "since there is no evidence for the existence of god, the safe assumption is that god does not exist." There is no evidence for the tooth fairy. It is safe to assume that the tooth fairy does not exist. There is no evidence for santa claus. It is safe to assume that santa claus does not exist. I do not need to disprove the existence of santa claus. If you want to tell people santa claus is real, then you should present convincing evidence. If we don't approach our understanding of reality that way, then all hypotheses (no matter how ridiculous!) would carry equal weight whether there was evidence for them, or not.

Secondly, you're not pointing out my foolishness, you're pointing out your opinion of me. You simply can't state that what I believe is {fact} foolishness, because as the comments say, one cannot prove God does or doesn't exist.

Of course you can prove if god exists!!! I can imagine any number of fairly convincing demonstrations of supreme all-powerfulness that god could do, which would irrefutably prove he existed. What I think you mean to say is that god simply doesn't choose to prove he exists... Which is true. Coincidentally, that is exactly the same as what a nonexistent non-being would do.

My opinion: I think you're a fool. Evidence: I am pointing out the places where you are displaying your foolishness through ignorance of basic logic. Here's what's funny - you probably don't realize how foolish you sound, because if you did then you'd be equipped to understand enough about logic that you wouldn't be a fool. I get this all the time; reasoning with the faithful doesn't work very well. After all, if you were rational and subject to reason, you wouldn't be faithful.

The examples you're sharing are examples of what happens when religions turns destructive - i.e. man's opinions, not God's word.

Of course. Man does really dumb things in god's name and that's not god's fault. My point was a bit more subtle - it's simply that there are multiple people who believe that they are getting guidance from god - and do incredibly dumb things. So let's abstract things a little bit more. Do you think you're being led by god? Do you think it's the same god as the dumb idiot down the street is being led by? If so, you have to resolve the contradiction, namely that one of you is delusional, or your god is cheerfully f*cking with one of you and has a poor sense of humor. Bear in mind that there are billions of people on earth who believe they are doing god's work or god's will - yet, somehow, miraculously, they don't agree on everything. How can that be? The simple observation is "if there's no god, that makes perfect sense." This is not my contradiction to resolve, because I don't believe in any of that nonsense - but if I were a believer it would bother me tremendously when I realized that god apparently gives people bad andf contradictory advice all the time. So god is either a tremendous jerk, or really incompetent - or both.

Never mind that god is also the god of smallpox, spina bifida, tsunamis, and fetal miscarriage - one of the points most theologians don't seem to understand is that if there actually were a god, it would be considered "evil" in terms of every moral test imaginable. But, that's a side issue.

I was simply trying to point out that opinions like yours can be just as destructive as those with militant religious views that they act upon. It seems you really don't care about anyone but yourself, please correct me if I'm wrong.

What arrant nonsense. My opinion has not moved a single suicide bomber, or beaten a single homosexual, or started a single war. One person who is willing to be confrontational and disagreeable does not cause a whole lot of misery. Perhaps if this discussion crushes your foolish faith and you commit suicide as a result, I'll feel a small pang. It'd be the first death I've caused - and if you want to think in terms of body-count, you're ridiculous when you try to stack up the misery I create against militant religion's scorecard.

Oh, and as for what I care about? Whatever suits me. But I care about it plenty. If you're honest with yourself, you'll admit that that's what pretty much everyone does, whether they are believers or not. I just don't bother coming up with a lot of self-justifying bullshit for my actions; think of all the time I save that way!

Church is where two or three or more people may gather - not a building, or an organisation. The church is the people. The organisation is that - for organising. The building is to house the meeting.

Whatevurrrrrrrrr.....

In the US private landowners, businesses, etc - all pay taxes for their real estate. Religions don't. In many countries, the government subsidizes religions with taxpayer's money. Don't you find that a bit odd? Considering that god supposedly made all the gold in the world, millions of pounds of the stuff, but the temples are always begging for cash? Gosh, you'd think he'd toss them a $100million bank error or lottery prize every so often, huh? :rofl:

You're also writing off the many great religious people today and in recent history who are doing great things for this world.

Yes, I absolutely am. And it's easy - you can, too. All you have to do is observe the simple fact that there is no humanitarian, good works, or charitable action that is done in the name of religion that cannot just as easily be done for humanistic reasons. I'm a nihilist/atheist and I give money to charities and donated a bunch of stuff and cash to help the relief efforts in New Orleans. Faith is not a prerequisite for being a decent person. In fact, if you look at how people's actions and their faith match up, the behaviors of the faithful are basically indistinguishable from eachother and the faithless. What does that tell you??

It's also entirely possible these millions of people are in on something and you're missing out. You can't PROVE it either way. It's a belief thing.

It is possible! And you'd think that among those millions of people, someone would have some convincing evidence to present as to why their beliefs are true. But, oddly, all they offer is "a belief thing."

In terms of alcoholics, how would you help an alcoholic?

I wouldn't. It's his/her liver/brain/body and if he/she wants to shorten their life, it's their life to shorten. If their family cares about them, their family might want to intervene and try to help them, because it's their family that is going to bear the personal, financial, and medical cost of the alcoholic's choices. If I were to actually intervene, somehow, I'd be essentially placing myself higher on some kind of moral scale, as if I knew better than they did what they should do with their life. That's a very very difficult position to defend and I certainly wouldn't try to defend it. (It is, by the way, the position of moral authority that religion often tries to defend, but it's a fruitless and horrible effort)

I don't think that (from what I understand) the way sex ed is being run in America is a good idea, because it appears to not really be working. Is that right?

It's horrible. We try to teach kids as if they should be in zip-loc bags until they're 18, at which point we turn them out as sexual beings that are utterly stupid. Meanwhile, the truth is that we've got people here on DA who can't look at "18+" pictures (omigod! boobies!) but who become sexually active at 15, 16, 17 - whatever. I dunno about you, but I'd have been quite happy to be sexually active at 14 or 15. Most humans are. Society's approach to many of these problems is rooted in bizzare notions of "marriage" and sexuality rooted in things that may have had social value thousands of years ago. The "every womb must be filled all the time" attitude of abrahamic religion probably worked well for tribes in a constant state of war and migration, where maternal mortality rates probably hovered around 40%. The "ideas" religion offers us regarding sexuality are utterly obsolete.

By saying this you're inferring that you're right, I'm wrong, you are the one with Knowledge and your experiences are more valid than mine. You can't claim that, it's your opinion again. No proof.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Because you have absolutely no plausible evidence to support your assertions, I am entirely justified in concluding that you're just delusional. You're right that there's no proof. You haven't got any. Oh, or are you back to asking me to disprove the existence of god? Even theologists (who are basically bullshit artists) don't try that "prove god does not exist" nonsense. It's a gradeschool gambit.

I don't intend on devastating you with my cleverness

That's really good. Because you don't even have the basic logic skills to reason about philosophy, let alone win an argument.

I came to the decision that I needed Jesus because I had the revelation that I was a sinner, and needed a saviour. No other religion had selflessness that rang true to me with the Son of God giving His life so that I might live.

Did you study Zoroastrianism?? Because Mithras (according to the Zoroastrians) was the son of god and came to earth to wipe out sin. Sound familiar?? It should. Why are you a christian instead of a zoroastrian?

No other 'gods' embody love.

Excuuuuuse ME!?!?! Aphrodite was the embodiment of love. Yahweh (for all that he acts like a psychotic) claims to be a god of love. Buddah claims to be all about love. Ostara was a goddess of love. Ganesha is the god of love. Freya was all about love...

I didn't guess.

I see. So what evidence made you believe that the christian god of love is better/different/more lovey-dovey than Aphrodite(who has the advantage of also being really hawt)??

I'm guessing that what's really going on is that you were indoctrinated with christian bullshit and that's the god you believe in because it's the one you were told was real. You've got absolutely nothing that would let you argue that your god of love is real while Aphrodite is not. Or are you going to say that you believe in Aphrodite and Ostara and so forth, too?? Unfortunately, all the gods say "I am the one true god of love.." so you've got some gnarly contradictions to sort out.

I'm guessing you didn't actually study other religions much at all - because if you had, you'd probably have figured out that they're obviously lifting huge chunks from eachother and are obviously the creation of man.

I will pray that one day He will break through the walls you have set up

Like every other prayer that's ever been offered, it won't cause anything to happen that wasn't already going to happen. Funny how that works, huh? :D

The Bible is the living word of God

I knew that eventually you'd reveal yourself as an ignorant bible-waver. :D

Which bible? The book of the jews? Or the version that was edited and expanded by the early christians? Or the version that was constructed by the council of Nicea? Or the king james version?

Is the "living word of god" the original ahramaic version, or the greek version, or the english version?? How can you treat a document that has obviously be edited and re-edited by humans - often for political reasons such as the ones that created anglicanism - and translated - as the "living word of god"?? Are all translations of the bible the "living word of god"?? What about the LOLcat bible?

Ceiling cat may love you, but I'm laughing my ass off at you.
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:icondepresedescapist:
depresedescapist Featured By Owner May 19, 2008  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Why won't you respond to my arguments?
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Aperture
F/16.0
Focal Length
54 mm
ISO Speed
100
Date Taken
Dec 8, 2004, 7:40:50 PM
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